[Scaryfatmaniffer]

After long discussions with several players, I feel we need to tighten up on a few aspects of charcater's lives; one of which is money.
For many years we have had discussion on how roleplaying improves when characters have an actual income, expenditure and also amount of land. Negotiation, deals, con tricks, employment, theft all works far better when we are dealing with "real" values rather than a hazy nebulous amount. Losing all your life savings at cards is far more important to plot if that amount actually has a value. The winner knows exactly what they can do with their winnings etc.

I have some ideas and would appreciate feedback on these:

1) all money in the system is split into two currency forms - the real life tinnies which are cash equivalents and are used for buying and selling (food, costumes, people's in character services etc) and a second value that has no physical representation but is accurately recorded by the player (similar to their experience points) and is used for purchasing purely in character stuff such as a hut, trade goods, new clothes, magic potions or whatever.
For example if a player was to bet a fiver (a gold piece) on a hand of cards and lose they would probably be well miffed but in character this is hardly a traumatic  experience (unless you are playing Dean from the late 90's )

For a character (even a peasant) to have a life altering win or loss, one would expect to be losing the equivalent of at least a few hundred pounds.

2) For this second system to work players would have to ensure their characters were "working" downtime and to discuss with a Gamesmaster what their earnings would be. They would then have to choose a "lifestyle" which would determine how much they spent on their everyday life.
Taking their lifestyle value from their earnings would give a disposable income which each character could note each week. This could mean that poor merchants could save money by living like a beggar, and rich nobleman could be constantly penniless due to their extravagant lifestyle.

This could lead to lots of subtle small plots between players - where did you get that new flintlock from - they cost a fortune? there would be value in robbing the dead - particularly "monsters", and taking risks with gambling.
Still not sure how easy it will be to accomodate this for things like gambling, stealing purses, buying things from traders where there needs to be a physical representation of the money. I would like to avoid paper money(LT style spell cards and the like) as it will involve huge amounts of work and will cause a plethora of litter.

Any suggestions - please discuss.

[Scaryfatmaniffer]

Tommy suggested that we get a load of old pennies and spray them gold and use them as in character gold coins - foreign coins could also be used (as in character foreign coins), differing sizes could relate to different gold content within the coin.
You keep a note of your income and total cash on your character sheet which is your responsibility to update each week - and you choose how much actual cash to bring (in terms of sprayed coins). If you get robbed or spend it then you need to cross the loss from your character sheet.
I know this is open to abuse but we need some trust and if honest mistakes are made with small amounts of income it hardly matters as people have good and had weeks, overtime, windfalls etc.
any thoughts?

[Scaryfatmaniffer]

Of course - things like gambling become more interesting, robbers become more problematic and dodging your taxes is a lot more difficult.

[alec42]

I think your circular blackboard idea was quite good. I do like the idea of old pennies as well and they seem to be going quite cheaply on ebay at the moment so building up a large stock would be easy.

[mattd]

It is an aspect that has always been a little hazy, but by the same token I think this level of crystal clarity is going too far. Writing down expenses, income, employment etc. is going to become too much of a chore and swiftly forgotten by everyone, I suspect - personally speaking I hardly even bother with XP anymore, I just turn up each week and if I can get someone to train me in character in something (like I'm waiting to be educated in the sword by some poor volunteer) I slowly build it up. I much prefer this kind of laissez-faire approach, particularly as it leans more towards the roleplay than the ruleplay.

With that in mind, I think a general outline of what everyone would be earning/spending is a better idea than individually discussing every character. A simple set of tables like below to give a weekly disposable income and just have that figure in mind when picking up your old pennies would be much easier and more likely to survive.

Job	Weekly Income
Woodsman	10 Gold
Trader	20 Gold
Noble	100 Gold

Accommodation	Weekly Cost
Forest Hut	1 Gold
Rented Wolf Room	10 Gold
Town House	40 Gold

Lifestyle	Weekly Cost
Simple	5 Gold
Reasonable	9 Gold
Extravagant	70 Gold

Obviously those numbers are all made up for the example, as they'd need balancing rather more carefully. People can then run a simple calculation, post it & check it with a GM on here and have one figure in mind for how much money they collect each week. Alternatively, it can serve as the basis for discussion, as every trader is going to be unique; someone trading in rare furs may make an enormous profit when they have stock and nothing when they don't, and Hamish won't make any profit because he drinks it all.

The challenge I see is convincing people not to just live at the very basic levels - there needs to be some motivation to move up the ladder of lifestyles beyond the in-character, perhaps limits on how much XP they can gain (if you're hunting for food all the time to save money you have less time to practice/learn), how much HP can be added to a character sheet (gruel ain't as good as turkey), or more roleplay-centric ideas like restricting the opportunities available - who would want to enter into a business arrangement with a man who lives under two sticks and a blanket?

These are just random ideas I'm throwing out here, as ever, but to get back to the original point: keep it simple stupid

[Scaryfatmaniffer]

I don't think we have to be too precise in game time - but if you have a table like you suggested but generally discussed with a gamesmaster you can have a situation where you know hoe much you'll be making each week on average as disposable income - say 4 gold pieces. You can keep this as a tally if you want and then decide that after a few weeks you will carru twentygold with you which can be represented by sprayed pennies - you then have the money to barter with merchants - play cards with, get robbed etc.

[The Darklord]

Sorry to further complicate things but looking at the table mat has come up with (and I know it was just an example) I can see problems - for instance what levels of nobility are we looking at?  In medeival times knights were often virtually paupers or mercenaries living from hand to mouth whilst some Dukes we wealthier than kings.  In fact inheriting a title could bankrupt some people as they simply could not afford to maintain the lands/house they had been given or pay of the debts on that property.  The tension between the upwardly mobile wealthy middle classes (merchants etc) could be a source of intrigue in character but could be a git to work out in terms of money and income.  Equally a noble man could have quite an income but have virtually no ready cash as his money is going to maintain the appearance of wealth rather than into savings or disposable income.

if we look at historical british or european gentry if you didn't drink gamble and consume conspicusly as well as giving alms to the poor and loans to your betters you would be looked on as an oddity.

[Scaryfatmaniffer]

I love what you are saying - look at the possibilities for plot - can you imagine what a minor noble would have to do to maintain his position - all those scams he could be planning at times when the Inn is not being attacked or scrolls being translated. Think about methods of making money - in character and downtime real deals, scams, plans run them passed the gamesmaster they may well work (equally they may not) but...
As the villain on Under Siege so beautifully puts it "fortune favours the prepared mind" and also adds something along the lines of lack of planning is the mother of all f*** ups.
Things need to be planned - most villains can be taken down - with planning - I am not a great fan of the "no effect"  call - I personally think that unless a creature has no physical form (ethereal/non-corporeal/essentailly a ghost or derivative) then it can be harmed. Maybe not enough by a sword to finish it off but...
Ask yourself how many werewolves, vampires, greater mummies, iron golems, elder dragons would have survived ground zero at Hiroshima - perhaps for once you could have seen the vampires shadow (permanently left on the pavement) - after all a nuke is not a magic weapon.
Now stone golems often are awarded a no effect call to non magic - how about a pneumatic drill - I know I am being silly but how about a dozen blacksmiths with big hammers - you don't usually have them lying around but if you know a golem is likely to turn up ;a bit of carefull planning, bribing and dealing with the masons guild.

Plan all sorts of things - it fills gaps and it gains you power.

[alec42]

There was in fact a Buffy episode on this very theme. A horrible deamon was re-awakened after 500 years of torpor and everyone was cacking it because he 'could not be harmed by mortal blades'. So Buffy cleverly managed to steal a bazooka and promptly shot him with it, proving that old agage 'The Rocket Propelled Grenade is mightier than the sword'. 

[alec42]

Returning to economics, I believe that inye olden days, a popular way to generate cash was by sponsoring trips to uncharted lands in the hope that they would return with rare goods that could be sold for a huge profit in which you would have a share.

[Scott]

I just think that we should put the gold system into place and then if there are any problems just iron them out afterwards. The sooner its in the sooner it will encourage the roleplay and there will be a way to tempt the more lazy of us into doing things.

[Artemisia]

There's always the danger that we just twitter on and never get on with it - certainly some IC coinage will kick start gambling, thieving and possibly some honest(?) trading.
Testing some ideas - will get back to you!